tmarrapodi@... wrote:

>When the Olympics ends and a lot of the competitors announce they're not
planning to go to worlds, you can just see the host city cringe.
>
>
I can sympathize with the organizers of 1994 Worlds cringing, but anyone
holding the post-Olympics worlds from then forward should not have
expected many medalists to begin with.

>They so resent having to cover figure skating in the first place that to them,
a post-Olympics worlds without the big Olympic medalists is not even worth
holding--or covering, anyway.
>
>
Let's be honest.  Do these sportswriters never think any Worlds is worth
holding or covering?  The post-Olympic Worlds without the big Olympic
medalists still has mostly the same skaters as the next year's Worlds
will have.    I guess this is less true today than ever before, as more
medalists do remain in eligible competition. now.

Susan McC

>The real fans of skating don't matter so much. They look upon a post-Olympics
world championships not so much as their chance to see all their favorite
Olympic stars as an opportunity to see the next generation assert itself and
start jockeying for position.
>
>Also, I personally don't need to have a skater prove to me that his or her
victory in the Olympics or worlds was "not a fluke." A win is a win, even if it
happens only once. No need to justify it to me or prove you can do it again,
unless you want to. I don't discount victories by saying "Yeah. but it only
happened because this other skater was injured and that one was sick and the
other one didn't show up." Guess what? That's the law of sports! The only people
who stand a chance of winning are those who actually show up and compete. If one
of them beats everyone else who shows up to compete--even if it's by skating
less badly than everyone else--that one is the winner--no fluke, no asterisk
next to the name, no qualifications, no nothing.
>
>I count Yuka Sato's world title no less valuable because she didn't have to
compete against Oksana Baiul or Nancy Kerrigan to get it. I count Maria
Butyrskaya's world win no less valuable just because Michelle Kwan was sick.
They both still had to get in the competition, skate and out-score everyone else
who was there, in the condition they were in at the time. They did. Therefore,
they will always be world champions--maybe not multiple world champions, but
world champions no less valid than any others. And they never had to prove to me
they weren't flukes.
>
>Trudi
>
>
>

Blame the ISU (who else?) for this. Skating is one of a few sports that insist
on holding a world championships in an Olympic year. Perhaps it's a phenomena
that characterize ice sports - ice hockey and curling do that too, but I can't
recall any other sport...


--- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, Stinger2007@... wrote:
>
>
>
> Joseph wrote about skaters who win Olympics and then pass on worlds a month
later:
>
>
>
> "This for me is a very sad aspect of figure skating and it takes away some
> respect I have for the olympic champions, I would expect them to have guts and
> courage to go and show the world they are not only a flash in a pan who won by
> some fortunate circumstance."
>
>
>
>
>
> WOW Joseph. harsh words. I don't agree with you at all. I think we need to cut
skaters some slack about this. I agree completely with Sandra's comments.
Olympics are the be all and end all for most if not all figure skaters. Most
are emotionally drained after practicing for years for their one shot at fame
and glory. Its like a college student who studies 4 years for one final exam and
then being asked to take another less meaningful exam 3 weeks later. How do they
get motivated to go home and study for it? It would be very difficult to do.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> David
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

My comment on this syndrome--which, of course, is not shiny brand-new, but seems
to have become more common since the 1994 Olympics, a peak year for it, when a
lot of competitors reinstated just for the Games and had no intention of
sticking around for worlds--and other competitors chose to take their medals and
run, or even run emptyhanded (Kurt Browning)--is that it really doesn't matter
to me all that much. I think it matters a LOT to the cities that are hosting a
post-Olympics worlds, because they really sell tickets largely by implying to
the locals that the people they just saw winning Olympic medals will all be
there. When the Olympics ends and a lot of the competitors announce they're not
planning to go to worlds, you can just see the host city cringe.

Same thing with some of the sports media. They so resent having to cover figure
skating in the first place that to them, a post-Olympics worlds without the big
Olympic medalists is not even worth holding--or covering, anyway.

The real fans of skating don't matter so much. They look upon a post-Olympics
world championships not so much as their chance to see all their favorite
Olympic stars as an opportunity to see the next generation assert itself and
start jockeying for position.

Also, I personally don't need to have a skater prove to me that his or her
victory in the Olympics or worlds was "not a fluke." A win is a win, even if it
happens only once. No need to justify it to me or prove you can do it again,
unless you want to. I don't discount victories by saying "Yeah. but it only
happened because this other skater was injured and that one was sick and the
other one didn't show up." Guess what? That's the law of sports! The only people
who stand a chance of winning are those who actually show up and compete. If one
of them beats everyone else who shows up to compete--even if it's by skating
less badly than everyone else--that one is the winner--no fluke, no asterisk
next to the name, no qualifications, no nothing.

I count Yuka Sato's world title no less valuable because she didn't have to
compete against Oksana Baiul or Nancy Kerrigan to get it. I count Maria
Butyrskaya's world win no less valuable just because Michelle Kwan was sick.
They both still had to get in the competition, skate and out-score everyone else
who was there, in the condition they were in at the time. They did. Therefore,
they will always be world champions--maybe not multiple world champions, but
world champions no less valid than any others. And they never had to prove to me
they weren't flukes.

Trudi

short interview with Jeffrey Buttle

http://www.leducrep.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2193040

--
Ruthann Biel,  mother, stitcher, music lover
bielr@... & bielra@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Brian Joubert hopes to return at the French championships Dec. 18-20.

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/news?slug=ap-joubert-injury&prov=ap&type=lgns
--
Ruthann Biel,  mother, stitcher, music lover
bielr@... & bielra@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, Maureen Diffley <maureen_diffley@...> wrote:
>
>  
> After Skate America - Khohlova/Novitski were the main story.  Aleksander
Gorshkov (Tech Dance) had earlier said they didn't need to change the program,
just check their levels. Here they had another judge looking professional and
attractive (So yes, Janet you look like a judge!), speaking clearly,
comprehensibly and like talking on TV was as natural as breathing. She explained
exactly what went wrong on their lifts - short of time, on twizzles, etc. And
there were split screens showing the same elements at SA and China to show the
difference.  What she contested were PCS skating skills in the 6s and that
Capellini's edges aren't clear, Zaretskis are lower level skaters, who shouldn't
have been able to get past K&N by virtue of PCS, although Technical reductions
were reasonable.  She implied that it ws unfair, but did not say so out loud.
>  
> At the moment, it seems that they are not being told to change the program
pronto. Problem being it's a Tarasova program, however, if they skip GPF Final
as I hear then hopefully they are working on changing things dramatically. But
I completely expect them to be on the national team. To be in contention for
anything though, they have a lot of work to do both on the ice, off the ice and
"behind the scenes".
>  
> Maureen

Thanks Maureen for posting this. always interesting to see how things are
perceived from the other side of the fence.
Well, only 2 judges were hammering them with 6's in PCS for their FD, the
majority gave them mid 7's, so we do not know exactly which judges were dropped
by the computer, they were not exactly unanimously dumping them. As far as the
Zaretky's "inflated" marks they looked fishy to me, I said to myself this looks
like Chait & Sakhnovsky revisited. I hope we are not in for a repeat of the
Nagano 2002 fiasco, we had enough scandals in this sport.
I agree, the israelis program was heartfelt and performed well, but their
skating skils are not comparable with the Kerr's or Faiella's and they scored
somewhere in their league.
About Tarasova's choices, I think she goes overboard with her dramatic, heroic
programs. She already messed Mao up, now she gives this to Kho/Nov, can she ever
pick a more optimistic music to any skater? Yeah I know she loves Gershwin, but
I would like to see something else.

Joseph

I've had a chance via youtube to watch "The Free Program" an NTV+ show devoted
just to figure skating, hosted by their Terry Gannon equivalent.  As part of
the show two weeks in a row, they took a fair amount of time having a
judge/technical controller explain the levels of performances, etc. Getting to
Khohlova...
 
The first week, it was Alla S. (Piseev's wife).  Off the subjuct, Mr. Piseev -
for such a wife, respekt i uvazhukha!!! She was quite awesome, actually,
friendly, knowledgeable, clear, enthusiastic, attractive like she'd been
flirting with a TV camera her whole life... Anyway, she was very clear that
Borodulin's levlel 1 at NHK was fair for the same circle he got a level 3 at Cup
of Russia, pointing out it's reasonable for levels to change, blah, blah, same
with Bobrova/Soloviev - perfectly clear explanations of what judges did. 
 
After Skate America - Khohlova/Novitski were the main story.  Aleksander
Gorshkov (Tech Dance) had earlier said they didn't need to change the program,
just check their levels. Here they had another judge looking professional and
attractive (So yes, Janet you look like a judge!), speaking clearly,
comprehensibly and like talking on TV was as natural as breathing. She explained
exactly what went wrong on their lifts - short of time, on twizzles, etc. And
there were split screens showing the same elements at SA and China to show the
difference.  What she contested were PCS skating skills in the 6s and that
Capellini's edges aren't clear, Zaretskis are lower level skaters, who shouldn't
have been able to get past K&N by virtue of PCS, although Technical reductions
were reasonable.  She implied that it ws unfair, but did not say so out loud.
 
At the moment, it seems that they are not being told to change the program
pronto. Problem being it's a Tarasova program, however, if they skip GPF Final
as I hear then hopefully they are working on changing things dramatically. But
I completely expect them to be on the national team. To be in contention for
anything though, they have a lot of work to do both on the ice, off the ice and
"behind the scenes".
 
Maureen
 
 
 
 


--- On Sun, 11/22/09, herios <herios@...> wrote:






I am almost sure, the love relationship with them is over, Bobrova and Soloviev
(4th team in Russia) just scored 4 points more here at SC than them at SA last
week.

I think they will have hard time hanging onto their spot in Russia.

Joseph











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lutai has been suspended from the national team for one year until Nov. 15,
2010, which means he won't be allowed to compete for a year at domestic or
international competitions, according to the Russian sports pages.
 
In the past, skaters like Kostomarov, Karponsov, Volkov have been suspended from
the team, which appears to mean not being allowed to compete, sometimes being
suspended from studies (aka Kostomarov), but does not appear to mean not having
your training paid for.
 
Maureen

--- On Wed, 11/25/09, Ruthann Biel <bielra@...> wrote:


From: Ruthann Biel <bielra@...>
Subject: [SkateFans] Lutai out of the running for the season
To: "Skate Fans" SkateFans@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 12:26 PM


 



The Russian Federation has banned Lutai for one year.

http://sports. yahoo.com/ olympics/ news?slug= ap-russia- lutaibanned&
prov=ap&type= lgns

--
Ruthann Biel, mother, stitcher, music lover
bielr@.... edu & bielra@gmail. com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Susan <smc413@...> writes:

> While I agree with everything else you said, my recollection re Wylie is
> that he did not have the choice of going to Worlds in 1992.  Because
> Todd Eldredge's injury bye had left the US team selectors in a tricky
> position, they decided to split the third spot between Wylie and Mark
> Mitchell.  The Olympic spot went to the old guy, the Worlds spot to the
> younger one.)  Kind of interesting the selectors essentially made the
> decision some are complaining about now - that a career ends with the
> Olympics and the next Worlds is where the younger skaters behind them
> begin their run at the big time.

That's true, it wasn't really Wylie's choice -- but I don't think he
ever expressed regret with the ending his competitive career that way,
either.

Anyway, I don't think that was the first time the USFSA bumped an older
competitor off the post-Olympic World team so that a younger skater
could go.  IIRC in 1980 they made a similar choice to send Elaine Zayak
to Worlds in place of Sandy Lenz so that she would be "grandfathered"
under the new ISU age rules, just as the CFSA pulled their national
champion Heather Kemkaran from Worlds in order to send Tracey Wainman
that year.  Of course, there were other cases where it just happened to
work out that way, too; in 1972 Julie Lynn Holmes turned pro right after
the OOOOOs so Dorothy Hamill got to go to her first Worlds that year.
And in 1960 all three of the US men on the Olympic team declined to go
to Worlds, so the USFSA sent young Bradley Lord and Gregory Kelley in
what sadly turned out to be their only appearance at Worlds.

-Sandra

Sandra Loosemore wrote:

> Probably others as well, not to mention all
>the silver and bronze medalists who decided they were done after the
>Olympics -- Rosalyn Sumners in 1984, the Duchesnays and Paul Wylie in
>1992, etc.
>
>
While I agree with everything else you said, my recollection re Wylie is
that he did not have the choice of going to Worlds in 1992.  Because
Todd Eldredge's injury bye had left the US team selectors in a tricky
position, they decided to split the third spot between Wylie and Mark
Mitchell.  The Olympic spot went to the old guy, the Worlds spot to the
younger one.)  Kind of interesting the selectors essentially made the
decision some are complaining about now - that a career ends with the
Olympics and the next Worlds is where the younger skaters behind them
begin their run at the big time.

Susan McC

Stinger2007@... wrote:

>Apparently last night Brian Joubert suffered a serious injury to his foot while
practicing at his home rink in Poitiers (check spelling). His left foot sliced
his tendon and joint on his right foot and he now has to have surgery to correct
it. I wonder if this will affect his appearance for Europeans and Olympics? I
hope not but....it doesn't sound good.
>
>
>
Hope it isn't too serious.  Whether one likes his skating or not, you
hate to see something like this cost him his chances.  Still, this
sounds like an injury very similar to one Kulik had in the Autumn of
1997, and he was able to recover in time.  His came earlier in the year,
though (more like August?) but he was able to do his GP events that
year, so maybe we can be optimistic for Joubert as well.

Susan McC

--- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, "ncurrie40" <ncurrie40@...> wrote:
>
> One: did anyone dowload it, cuz on utube the audio track has been disbaled,
and music plays this normally squasi-tangitial part in evaluating it<GGGGG>
>
> two: THe dress has got to go. It hideus beyond imaination and violates the
strictest ice dancing rule: do nothing that makes the girl look fat.
>
> The dance (w/out) music hold our attnetion for quite aways thru .... finally
some twizzles that amke sense cjoreographically and that different enough to be
called "original"
>
> remember originality?
>
> They are still way too slow for their ability .... and even ift the music is
soft or calls for a "quiet" approach ... they need to step it up nonethless
.....
>
Responding to a message over a month old of Ben's, because I found a version of
Crone & Poirier FD which the WMG police officer missed to disable.
Here it is, this is not their best version to date, here Paul was suffering from
a flu, at NHK they skated a lot better and got around 6 points more for this
dance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHT1ZN3N8K0

They interpret a sophisticated piece of music, where Paul portrays Orpheus and
Vanessa is Eurydice

I really hope they skate well at the GPF, great opportunity there for them

Joseph

What Ms Kwan's 1996 Worlds FS might have lost on difficulty, it gained on GOE.

warmly,
Nikki

Dear Skatefans:

On a whim, I went back and watched Ms Kwan's winning freeskate at 1996 Worlds,
the ABC version with Jim McKay being wonderfully silent.

It was an awesome skate. What strikes me at this viewing is her maturity and
dramatic dedication to the music.

I think this program would fare well under CoP.

What do you all think?

Happy Holiday.

warmly,
Nikki Lee

I used to be sceptical of skaters who used tendonitis as a reason to
withdraw from something.  You can't see it. It just seemed to be all too
convenient.  Then I got tendonitis in my left achilles tendon.  I could
hardly walk and every time I thought I was making progress towards recovery
it would flare up again.  Needless to say I'm a lot more sympathetic now.

Marg

----- Original Message -----
From: "capcomgr" <capcomop@...>
To: <SkateFans@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:49 AM
Subject: [SkateFans] Re: Wisdom tooth knocks Belbin-Agosto from Grand Prix
skate final


>I think there are several factors that go into fans "believing" or "not
>believing" a skater and the injury "excuse."
> I think we look at the history of the skater (withdraws a lot or has often
> claimed injury or illness for bad performance), the timing and importance
> of the event (the GPF in Tokyo before the Olymics, Nationals before the
> Olys), the behavior of the skater (skating in shows shortly before
> dropping out) and the timing and type of injury itself (wisdom tooth a
> month before a comp or "My muscle has been sore and I don't want to do it
> any damage").
>
> B/A are getting out of a long flight and pointess compeition before the
> Olympic choosing Nationals. Since people can't see much point in this comp
> and some point in not being there, the "injury" seems convient.
> Cohen withdrawing from her GP event is met with much more skepticism then
> if Czisny withdrew from hers with the same injury.
> All injuries may be true but they are colored by people looking for
> reasons why.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sandra Loosemore" <pondscum@...>
To: <SkateFans@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:50 PM
Subject: Re: [SkateFans] Take your medal and run syndrome


> Oh yeah, this "take the medal and run" isn't really totally new.
> Jeanette Altwegg in 1952.  David Jenkins, 1960.  Wolfgang Schwarz, 1968.
> Rodnina & Zaitsev in 1980.  Probably others as well, not to mention all
> the silver and bronze medalists who decided they were done after the
> Olympics -- Rosalyn Sumners in 1984, the Duchesnays and Paul Wylie in
> 1992, etc.
>
> -Sandra the cynic

When discussing this, we need to remember the definitions of amateur and pro
that were used back then.  I remember in 1988 reading the Elizabeth Manley
couldn't even announce her intention to turn pro.  That alone would have
been enought to disqualify her from Worlds that year.  Today's skater can
teach, choreograph and tour, get paid for it and still retain ISU and
Olympic eligibility,

Marg

Joseph wrote about skaters who win Olympics and then pass on worlds a month
later:



"This for me is a very sad aspect of figure skating and it takes away some
respect I have for the olympic champions, I would expect them to have guts and
courage to go and show the world they are not only a flash in a pan who won by
some fortunate circumstance."





WOW Joseph. harsh words. I don't agree with you at all. I think we need to cut
skaters some slack about this. I agree completely with Sandra's comments.
Olympics are the be all and end all for most if not all figure skaters. Most
are emotionally drained after practicing for years for their one shot at fame
and glory. Its like a college student who studies 4 years for one final exam and
then being asked to take another less meaningful exam 3 weeks later. How do they
get motivated to go home and study for it? It would be very difficult to do.









David




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Apparently last night Brian Joubert suffered a serious injury to his foot while
practicing at his home rink in Poitiers (check spelling). His left foot sliced
his tendon and joint on his right foot and he now has to have surgery to correct
it. I wonder if this will affect his appearance for Europeans and Olympics? I
hope not but....it doesn't sound good.



Tomas Verner is the first alternate for the GPF.







David

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think there are several factors that go into fans "believing" or "not
believing" a skater and the injury "excuse."
I think we look at the history of the skater (withdraws a lot or has often
claimed injury or illness for bad performance), the timing and importance of the
event (the GPF in Tokyo before the Olymics, Nationals before the Olys), the
behavior of the skater (skating in shows shortly before dropping out) and the
timing and type of injury itself (wisdom tooth a month before a comp or "My
muscle has been sore and I don't want to do it any damage").

B/A are getting out of a long flight and pointess compeition before the Olympic
choosing Nationals. Since people can't see much point in this comp and some
point in not being there, the "injury" seems convient.
Cohen withdrawing from her GP event is met with much more skepticism then if
Czisny withdrew from hers with the same injury.
All injuries may be true but they are colored by people looking for reasons why.

--- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, <tmarrapodi@...> wrote:
>
>
> Just one comment: I think it's kind of funny how we all didn't jump up and run
to follow Phil Hersh's advice when he said in a recent column that when an
athlete withdraws from an event pleading illness or injury, we should give them
the benefit of the doubt unless presented with evidence otherwise.
>
> I think it's because while he has a point--it can be damn embarrassing and
shameful to accuse someone of lying about or exaggerating a physical problem if
it turns out to be for real--we in the wonderful world of figure skating are so
used to skaters suddenly withdrawing from events where they'd have to compete
with their closest rivals right before a big show like the Olympics, or right
after winning the Olympics.
>
> It's like we're just so used to the idea that they want to avoid that if at
all possible--out of the assumption that they risk being defeated and thus
permanently "slotted" behind their rivals in the minds of the judges if they are
defeated before the Olympics, or risk "having their crown tarnished" if they are
defeated soon after the Olympics.
>
> Of course, you have the opposite syndrome, too: I believe both John Curry and
Dorothy Hamill went to the '76 worlds primarily because they felt the need, as
Olympic champions who'd never before won a world title, to "prove they were not
flukes." But that doesn't seem so popular a move anymore. These days, it's more
like "Take the medal and run."
>
> Yeah, yeah, I know, it's not always doubting that they've got the
problem--it's doubting that the problem is really so bad they can't compete.
Well, what can you say? Wisdom teeth do cause problems, and when they get pulled
people do get incapacitated with the pain and the drugs and whatnot.
>
> Funny thing, I had a lot of pain as my wisdom teeth erupted, but so far I've
managed to keep them all. I understand that's pretty unusual, and depends a lot
on the formation of your mouth.
>
> Trudi
>

--- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, Susan <smc413@...> wrote:
>
> herios wrote:
>
> >This chickening out habit started only in 1994.
> >Did Klimova and Panamarenko, or Mishkutenok and Dmitriev, or Yamaguchi or
Petrenko and I am not going to list all of them back in time, came up with a
reason or another? ...
> >
> >
> Kristi Yamaguchi  did not compete  in the 1994 Olympics, so don't tar
> her with this brush.
>
Susan

I mentioned Kristi in a positive conotation among the Olympic champions of 1992
who went along all the others to compete right after they won to the Worlds in
Oakland 1992, where she won a world title as well.

I know the media went crazy in 1994 with the Nancy  - Tonya  fiasco in
conjunction with the Baiul story. That just started the kick-off of this new
era.

Joseph

"herios" <herios@...> writes:

> This for me is a very sad aspect of figure skating and it takes away
> some respect I have for the olympic champions, I would expect them to
> have guts and courage to go and show the world they are not only a
> flash in a pan who won by some fortunate circumstance.

I don't think it's a matter of "guts and courage".  I think the media
and sponsorship demands that are put on Olympic champions increased
greatly after the Big Whack in 1994.  It's very hard for the skaters to
turn down the opportunities for interviews, public appearances, and
sponsor schmoozing that may come their way after the OOOOOs; this is an
expensive sport, and professional opportunities are getting harder to
come by nowadays so skaters may feel pressured to cash in quickly while
the offers are coming in.  And for many skaters the Olympics are their
ultimate goal in competitive skating, so why shouldn't they have a
chance to enjoy the immediate fame they get from it?  In any case, this
is all very distracting, and it's hard for skaters to go home and lock
themselves back in the rink to train for Worlds.

Oh yeah, this "take the medal and run" isn't really totally new.
Jeanette Altwegg in 1952.  David Jenkins, 1960.  Wolfgang Schwarz, 1968.
Rodnina & Zaitsev in 1980.  Probably others as well, not to mention all
the silver and bronze medalists who decided they were done after the
Olympics -- Rosalyn Sumners in 1984, the Duchesnays and Paul Wylie in
1992, etc.

-Sandra the cynic

herios wrote:

>This chickening out habit started only in 1994.
>Did Klimova and Panamarenko, or Mishkutenok and Dmitriev, or Yamaguchi or
Petrenko and I am not going to list all of them back in time, came up with a
reason or another? ...
>
>
Kristi Yamaguchi  did not compete  in the 1994 Olympics, so don't tar
her with this brush.

>This for me is a very sad aspect of figure skating and it takes away some
respect I have for the olympic champions, I would expect them to have guts and
courage to go and show the world they are not only a flash in a pan who won by
some fortunate circumstance.
>
One thing that changed in 94 was the number of top skaters who were
reinstated pros.  To my memory, none of them competed in Worlds that
year (Witt, Boitano, Petrenko, Gordeeva-Grinkov, Mishkutenok-Dmitriev,
Torvill & Dean - did I miss any?). I think 1994 was such a crazy Olympic
year anyway, with all the heightened media interest, that it became a
different kind of experience for the top contenders, with the mental
stress being pretty overwhelming for those most in the spotlight.
Kerrigan & Baiul in particular seemed ready to crack, to me.  Of the
Olympic medalists, only the ones who intended to continue as eligibles
the next season (including all 3 men) plus Brasseur & Eisler went to Worlds.

That year kind of set the pattern for the Olympic years that followed.
I think the Olympics and post-Olympic hoo-ha takes so much out of a
skater these days that it leaves them too exhausted, emotionally and
physically, to refocus, get motivated, and prepare for another
competition a few weeks later.  I'm inclined to think that the pressures
are greater than they used to be.  I sure like that theory better than
the explanation that they are just wimps and cowards compared to
previous generations.  (IMO, if they were wimps and cowards, they
wouldn't be in a position to contend for Olympic medals in the first place.)

We just need to redefine our expectations for post-Olympic Worlds.  It
isn't a coronation for the Olympic champs anymore.  It is now a place
for those who disappointed to redeem themselves and for the next
generation to step forward.

Susan McC

--- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, <tmarrapodi@...> wrote:
>
>
> Just one comment: I think it's kind of funny how we all didn't jump up and run
to follow Phil Hersh's advice when he said in a recent column that when an
athlete withdraws from an event pleading illness or injury, we should give them
the benefit of the doubt unless presented with evidence otherwise.
>
> I think it's because while he has a point--it can be damn embarrassing and
shameful to accuse someone of lying about or exaggerating a physical problem if
it turns out to be for real--we in the wonderful world of figure skating are so
used to skaters suddenly withdrawing from events where they'd have to compete
with their closest rivals right before a big show like the Olympics, or right
after winning the Olympics.
>
> It's like we're just so used to the idea that they want to avoid that if at
all possible--out of the assumption that they risk being defeated and thus
permanently "slotted" behind their rivals in the minds of the judges if they are
defeated before the Olympics, or risk "having their crown tarnished" if they are
defeated soon after the Olympics.
>
> Of course, you have the opposite syndrome, too: I believe both John Curry and
Dorothy Hamill went to the '76 worlds primarily because they felt the need, as
Olympic champions who'd never before won a world title, to "prove they were not
flukes." But that doesn't seem so popular a move anymore. These days, it's more
like "Take the medal and run."
>
I like this motto, but I hate the idea so I am opening it for discussion:

This habit to go and win a world title, because you never had one after you just
have been crowned Olympic champion was not a case for Hammill or Curry only.
Up to 1992 included all the new Olympic champions went to compete at the wolds
thus risking to lose some aura, it didn't matter if they never had a world title
or were already world champs.
This chickening out habit started only in 1994.
Did Klimova and Panamarenko, or Mishkutenok and Dmitriev, or Yamaguchi or
Petrenko and I am not going to list all of them back in time, came up with a
reason or another?
No they haven't. For me they are true champions who stood tall and went to
battle it out in a few weeks one more time.
This for me is a very sad aspect of figure skating and it takes away some
respect I have for the olympic champions, I would expect them to have guts and
courage to go and show the world they are not only a flash in a pan who won by
some fortunate circumstance.

Joseph

Just one comment: I think it's kind of funny how we all didn't jump up and run
to follow Phil Hersh's advice when he said in a recent column that when an
athlete withdraws from an event pleading illness or injury, we should give them
the benefit of the doubt unless presented with evidence otherwise.

I think it's because while he has a point--it can be damn embarrassing and
shameful to accuse someone of lying about or exaggerating a physical problem if
it turns out to be for real--we in the wonderful world of figure skating are so
used to skaters suddenly withdrawing from events where they'd have to compete
with their closest rivals right before a big show like the Olympics, or right
after winning the Olympics.

It's like we're just so used to the idea that they want to avoid that if at all
possible--out of the assumption that they risk being defeated and thus
permanently "slotted" behind their rivals in the minds of the judges if they are
defeated before the Olympics, or risk "having their crown tarnished" if they are
defeated soon after the Olympics.

Of course, you have the opposite syndrome, too: I believe both John Curry and
Dorothy Hamill went to the '76 worlds primarily because they felt the need, as
Olympic champions who'd never before won a world title, to "prove they were not
flukes." But that doesn't seem so popular a move anymore. These days, it's more
like "Take the medal and run."

Yeah, yeah, I know, it's not always doubting that they've got the problem--it's
doubting that the problem is really so bad they can't compete. Well, what can
you say? Wisdom teeth do cause problems, and when they get pulled people do get
incapacitated with the pain and the drugs and whatnot.

Funny thing, I had a lot of pain as my wisdom teeth erupted, but so far I've
managed to keep them all. I understand that's pretty unusual, and depends a lot
on the formation of your mouth.

Trudi

From The Japan Times Online, a story that asks "How do you solve a problem like
Asada?":

Mao, JSF appear content to retain present course
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/sp20091125it.html

And a less intriguing one by Barry Wilner about Lysacek and Kim's pressures:

Skaters Lysacek, Kim discover obligations, spoils
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iWz5C_xZ5AuN-Pqi00skP0fk2KqQD9\
C66FN80

(Interestingly enough, a Web site headline writer in Canada titled this same
story "Lysacek, Yu-na discover figure skating titles come with obligations,
spoils." Ah, the confusion of those first names.)

Like I said, the first one is the most telling. It implies that a lot of
handwringing is going on in the Japan Skating Federation about Mao Asada, but
not a lot is being done. Sort of like "Well, we talked to her, so if she blows
it now, don't blame us."

Also, they seem to be considering sending her to Four Continents...despite its
closeness to the Olympics.

Also, Tarasova is supposedly telling the Russian media she is now "just a
consultant" to Asada, not a "coach." Oh, brother.

Trudi

On Nov 25, 2009 7:08am, herios <herios@...> wrote:

> --- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, Sandra Loosemore wrote:


> Anyways I think the US ice dance will be a very tense event between the 2
> top teams , also Samuelson / Bates subpar SC score indicates that the
> battle for the 3rd spot will be wide open.

I agree about the top two - I doubt Belbin & Agosto wanted to risk losing
to Davis & White prior to nationals, so this is probably a case of "good
timing" with the wisdom tooth. Based on what we saw on the GP, B&A
definitely have a little ground to make up. Frankly, if they are staying
home from the GPF on purpose, it's probably a good choice. Why fly all the
way to Tokyo for a relatively unimportant event where they might establish
themselves as the third-ranked North American team when the time would be
better spent working on their FD?

As for the third spot on the US team, I wouldn't go with "wide open." Chock
& Zuerlein are progressing really nicely but aren't there yet, so Samuelson
& Bates should only be worrying about Navarro & Bommentre. Unfortunately
for S&B, I think they REALLY need to worry about N&B. Judges seem to get a
little more sentimental at nationals in Olympic years, when it comes to
those veteran crowd-favorites.

-April


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

OK, no matter what excuse is given, IMO, this opens up the upper level
competition to a few more teams.  Let it.  I guess I don't invest that much in
the GPF--in an Olympic year or not--(maybe I should, but I don't). It's open
season, in a way. Whichever team is ready (physically, mentally, etc), has an
opportunity to present their very best.  I think I've come to this mindset since
the time when pro skaters returned to compete with "amateurs".  It has always
bothered me that this has been allowed. So let whoever is
ready/inshape/whatever, go for the gold medal at the Olympics!


--- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, "Pete Murray" <duncaneer@...> wrote:
>
> Knokhlova and Novitski are out and Crone and Poirier are in the GPF.
>
> Peter
>

Knokhlova and Novitski are out and Crone and Poirier are in the GPF.

Peter

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: herios
   To: SkateFans@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 2:24 PM
   Subject: [SkateFans] Re: Wisdom tooth knocks Belbin-Agosto from Grand Prix
skate final

   --- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, Sandra Loosemore <pondscum@...> wrote:
   >
   > Anna Kondakova <annakond@...> writes:
   >
   > > They do need a medical reason, but it's my understanding, perhaps too
   > > cynical one, that in between various stress fractures, pulled muscles,
   > > twisted ankles and whatever other injuries they have sustained over
   > > their careers, practically any skater out there can present a
   > > perfectly valid medical certificate at any given moment.
   >
   > That's my impression as well.... there's *always* something that hurts,
   > or a nagging minor injury of some sort, or a cold that needs to be
   > tended to. None of this stuff might stop a really determined
   > competitor, but it's easy to see how skaters can get a doctor to say
   > "you really ought to stay home and rest your body".
   >
   > Anyway, I'm also reminded of Tara Lipinski, who used getting a wisdom
   > tooth removed (about a month before the event!) as an excuse for
   > withdrawing from 1998 Worlds.
   >
   > -Sandra the cynic
   >
   That was the reason Tara withdrew for?
   Oh my, I am starting to be suspicious as well about Tanith, was she seeing the
same doctor by any chance as Tara, perhaps:)
   Especially after I checked out Goldenskate and there is already rumoured that
Jana Knokhlova cited the flu to withdraw from GPF as well.
   If that will be indeed the case, then next alternate will be the Canadian
Crone / Poirier team to go to the GPF.

   Joseph




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, Sandra Loosemore <pondscum@...> wrote:
>
> Anna Kondakova <annakond@...> writes:
>
> > They do need a medical reason, but it's my understanding, perhaps too
> > cynical one, that in between various stress fractures, pulled muscles,
> > twisted ankles and whatever other injuries they have sustained over
> > their careers, practically any skater out there can present a
> > perfectly valid medical certificate at any given moment.
>
> That's my impression as well....  there's *always* something that hurts,
> or a nagging minor injury of some sort, or a cold that needs to be
> tended to.  None of this stuff might stop a really determined
> competitor, but it's easy to see how skaters can get a doctor to say
> "you really ought to stay home and rest your body".
>
> Anyway, I'm also reminded of Tara Lipinski, who used getting a wisdom
> tooth removed (about a month before the event!) as an excuse for
> withdrawing from 1998 Worlds.
>
> -Sandra the cynic
>
That was the reason Tara withdrew for?
Oh my, I am starting to be suspicious as well about Tanith, was she seeing the
same doctor by any chance as Tara, perhaps:)
Especially after I checked out Goldenskate and there is already rumoured that
Jana Knokhlova cited the flu to withdraw from GPF as well.
If that will be indeed the case, then next alternate will be the Canadian Crone
/ Poirier team to go to the GPF.

Joseph

Have been home sick all week but was feeling well enough this morning to flip
around the dial looking for something I'll eventually fall asleep in front of (I
was watching the Dog Whispere on Nat Geo and woke up to find I was watching a
program on shrunken heads.)  Wait, was that Scott Hamilton?  Backed up a
channel.  Yep, he was on,  The 700 Club.

<http://www.cbn.com/700club/guests/interviews/Scott_Hamilton112509.aspx>

Sharon
A SkateFan Librarian